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1991_10 16&17 MADHURYA KADAMBINI THIRD MEETING 3 AND QUES FROM GOV PUJA TAPE

Śrīla Gurudeva: Then we should…uh…(Hindi aside)…I wanted to see these things before your coming.

GBC: But you didn't get a chance…

Śrīla Gurudeva: …but no time; very scarcity of time.

GBC: It doesn't matter. It is already inside of you.

Śrīla Gurudeva: (chuckles). Any question? No?

GBC: No, I just want to hear you explain more.

Śrīla Gurudeva: You have any question? You are satisfied?

GBC: Um…I want more explanation.

Śrīla Gurudeva: What about you? Any question? Everything is so easy for you. And he is an intellectual gent.

(chuckles with audience)

Then we should go. What thing?

GBC: Where was the place we left off?

You had explained yadṛcchayā. You had already explained.

(discussing where Śrīla Gurudeva left off with other members of GBC)

I think in speaking Mahārāja explained almost the entire first chapter.

GBC: No, really?

Śrīla Gurudeva: Something.

GBC: Maybe something more.

GBC: No, he hasn't explained this.

GBC: Where?

GBC: Page four.

GBC: Mahārāja, I have a question: "Nor is bhakti dependent even upon faith: sacred api parigitam śraddhayā helaya va.." And then it explains that, "The name of Krsna chanted even once, either with faith or without faith, can deliver any man." But, still, to say that faith is not necessary seems very surprising. Even though one verse is given that the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is so great even without faith he gets benefit. But don't you need faith for bhakti? Isn't great faith needed? But here it says it's not needed, or not dependent on faith.

Audience: sakrda api parigitam śraddhayā helaya va.

GBC: Don't we need faith in Guru and faith in śāstra?

Śrīla Gurudeva: (Hindi aside)… We have not yet discussed these things.

GBC: No.

Śrīla Gurudeva: It will come.

Here, dāna vrata homa śrāddhaya it has been finished. After that he is giving some ślokas, reference. Sreyah svitim bhaktim udasya te vibho and ko 'vartha apto* 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah purvaiva bhuman bahavo 'pi yoginah (…reading directly from original Bengali version […jñāna karma yoginaḥ…]).

Here he is telling that ko 'vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah. By sadachara, or by śubha karma, we may have bhakti if anyone tells — pūrva-pakṣa. Pūrva-pakṣa you know?

GBC: Questions, answers.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Questions and answers. Any one questions that. Next, (śubha) karma and sadachara give bhakti. Without sadachara and śubha karma we may not have bhakti. Here Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura is quoting this śloka from Śrīmad Bhāgavatam that sadachara and by śubha karma or (sata) karma bhakti can not come. Ko 'vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah. He is telling that if a man has prarambha karna…started to do Hari bhakti but he has not left his bad works — asadachara. He is yet doing some asadachara and not śubha karma, aśubha karma he may do it. But he is trying to do ananya bhajana also.

Here he is telling that, if a man living sva-dharma; sva-dharma meaning service of father and mother.

GBC: Occupational duty. Prescribed duty.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Varṇāśrama dharma. If a man living all these things he has started to do bhajana of Kṛṣṇa and in the mid-way he falls down, no harm. Again he will, after that is gone, any how he will get any (indistinct) and he will start from there. That pātam, falling down, will not disturb him. For some time it will cover; but after some time, after enjoying, the karma phala, he will again start bhakti. But if a man, leaving hari bhajana, doing (sata) karma, sadachara, and varṇāśrama dharma, very faithfully he is following, what is gained? He gains nothing because he will have some bhoga, enjoyment, after that again he will fall forever. So, there is nothing to gain in this. So, if a man falls, if he's sakāma yet, no harm. God will fulfill his…quench.

GBC: Quench his thirst.

Śrīla Gurudeva: And again he will do bhakti after that. He falls down, he will fall down, but yet Kṛṣṇa will take his hand and he will again engage in his service. So, we should only fear from aparādha anartha; these are a kind of anartha. But here this can not give adhikārī to bhakti, these things. So, we should respect a man who is yet fallen but doing bhakti; not to a man who is so pure to his varṇāśrama dharma.

GBC: We see examples of this in ISKCON sometimes. Some devotees, even they are fallen but they are still doing bhakti.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Then they should be respected. But very carefully. Not interjection…uh…

GBC: Not intimate association

Śrīla Gurudeva: Association. We should not do nindā or anything like that. But we should not praise also. If he comes, oh come, come on. But not from heart. Not association. Sadachara sambandha, aikāntika bhakta, they should be associated with. And especially those who are more qualified than us.

He is telling that also… (break audio)…anything?

GBC: No. No.

Śrīla Gurudeva: For having Kṛṣṇa prema or doing bhakti someone thinks that we should take help of jñāna yoga karma or any thing. But these things are not good. Only bhakti can be done. No help from all these things. Some times we see that we should do some yoga for our body.

GBC: For health.

Śrīla Gurudeva: For health.

GBC: For good health.

Śrīla Gurudeva: We should do some yoga.

Audience: Exercise.

Śrīla Gurudeva: These are yogas. But I think for Vraja bhakti these are prātikūla. Wrestling and all these things. It uh…what?

It covers gopa gopī bhāva, especially gopī bhāva and puruṣa bhāva comes. Puruṣa means?

GBC: Man. Male false ego.

Śrīla Gurudeva: So, we should not adopt.

GBC: We should discuss this point further because so many of use are doing these exercises.

GBC: Otherwise we can not digest food, we are sleeping all the time, we are tired.

GBC: Yesterday he saw Ayurvedic doctor who said get more exercise. Now is there an vaiṣṇava exercise that is not prātikūla?

GBC: We should wrestle with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja.

GBC: Dancing in kīrtana

Śrīla Gurudeva: Ah! Dancing in kīrtana and doing pariśrama for all these sevā it will do.

GBC: Pariśrama?

Audience: Labor. Hard labor.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Labor.

GBC: Most of our labor is taking pen and moving…

GBC: All day long we are simply sitting and talking, writing, and thinking. We have no opportunity for any exercise.

GBC: Except for Hanumān.

Śrīla Gurudeva: In kīrtana? You should do kīrtana surely. Both purposes will be solved.

GBC: Supposing when we are doing these exercises we are playing some tape recording of Kṛṣṇa-kathā. Then our conscienceness is hearing the recording but the body is doing the exercise but the mind is thinking of the tape recording. Is it still prātikūla?

Śrīla Gurudeva: I am telling of yogas. Especially yogas.

GBC: Aṣṭāṅga-yoga, prāṇāyāma.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Aṣṭāṅga, prāṇāyāma, all these things. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has done bhakti cult so easy that we can do everything. In dancing and doing this sevā, this sevā. To go Govardhana to come to do parikramā. These are all the things.

We should try to save our inner bhāva anywhere anyhow. And if there is no bhāva then (go out—indistinct) what you are doing? Doing bhakti also and all these things also. But a special bhāva has come in our heart and those things which are opposite we should try to leave all these things.

We will think it. You will think it.

If any man is in gopī bhāva, he is doing, he should not do anything that his puruṣa bhāva will come. By (daṇḍ…—unknown—) puruṣa bhāva can come.

GBC: By daṇḍa…?

GBC: Something with a stick. Exercise.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Daṇḍa…means exercise. What gopīs have done, dance with Kṛṣṇa and all activities, we can follow. And if you think to be sakhā you can wrestle you can do all these things. Good for you.

We should follow every thing of that person to whom we have greed. That is anukūla. And those who have not gone up to this stage they can do everything. For body also for mind also for everything.

GBC: But what if we haven't come to that stage but we want to come to that stage? Then stop…?

Śrīla Gurudeva: We have to consider from very beginning.

GBC: Where we are at. You have to consider your actual stage and not imitate.

Śrīla Gurudeva: We should go to real position. Not imitation. But to follow from beginning it is good. From beginning.

GBC: So much of our work, not only exercise, develops puruṣa bhāva. We are managing. We have to say, "You must do this, immediately!" Most of our life is like that.

Śrīla Gurudeva: You are doing for guru sevā. If it is actually guru sevā all will help you. And you should wait for that time. Then actually this will come.

He is also telling that: yat marabhir yat tapasa jana vairagyatas ca yat. What begets from yajña, yāga, vrata, tapasyā, jñāna, vairāgya, yoga, tapasyā. Only by bhakti doing we will have all these things.

If a man has started bhakti then he is requiring śāstra jñāna, reading so many books and some qualities, he is doing effort for gaining some qualities, it should not be done.

Understanding?

GBC: But study of śāstra is good.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Is good.

GBC: If it increases that bhāva.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Increases that bhāva. But to increase bhakti this idea is not there and we, for our name and fame, and that I am so much learned person, we are doing all these things, then it is bhakti virodhī. We should do:

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ
smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam
arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ
sakhyam ātma-nivedanam

All these things. To read book is also śravaṇaṁ, it comes. When we chant harināma man goes everywhere, hither and thither, it may go; but when we are emerged in reading books who has come, not come. Nothing. So, it is a good kind of bhakti.

GBC: It is easier to pay attention by reading than by chanting.

Śrīla Gurudeva: And if it is of Śrīmad Bhāgavatam and of tenth canto, especially sakhā, sakhī sambandhi, then is is so good. By remembering man can go hither and thither by chanting also he could do; but not in reading. Whole energy should be given there so mind does not go here and there.

In bhakti, he is telling that for yoga, yajña, tapasyā, vrata, homa, svādhyāya, sanyam, they will deśe, kāla, and pātra; deśe, kāla, and pātra…?

GBC: Time, place, and circumstance.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Time, place, and circumstances. They should be very pavitra.

GBC: Pure.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Pure. If these three are not pure they will not give any fruit. But for bhakti no need. When we are reading bhakti, whether it is magha or any bad nakshatra, should not (indistinct). When we are giving name and dīkṣā, or taking, no this times should be considered. When harināma is given or harināma taken, that time is good. Whether it may be magha, agha, or anything.

GBC: It might even be in the evening.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Evening, morning, any…

GBC: For dīkṣā also?

Śrīla Gurudeva: Uh?

GBC: For dīkṣā also?

Śrīla Gurudeva: For dīkṣā also. But those who have not this quality to think these things they should be given in proper time. To increase their śrāddha only; but harināma and dīkṣā mantra does not need all these things.

GBC: I remember our guru Mahārāja was giving sannyāsa to someone and this person was very keen to get sannyāsa. So, he told me, "Make a big arrangement so he thinks that something has happenend."

Śrīla Gurudeva: Otherwise nothing is needed. Only that mantra is needed and at any time it can given. Gopāla mantra has no time and space and all these things. It is siddha mantra. But yet, seeing the condition of sādhaka, guru gives it. Thinking all these things, that he may not feel anything.

I have heard that Prabhupāda has given any one, in evening, dīkṣā mantra. No fire yajña and nothing. And that is dīkṣā. Only Gopāla mantra he gave. But now, "Oh gurudeva, you have not given your guru mantra."

Caitanya Mahāprabhu, um, Īśvara Purīpāda not any mantra, only Gopāla mantra; and that Gopāla mantra only gopījana-vallabhaya svaha. Not all these things, full mantras. Because it is siddha mantra. No fire, nothing, yajña, nothing was done. But we need all these things.

These are like a karma but yet vaiṣṇava has recommended them: vaiṣṇava yajña, vaiṣṇava homa, vaiṣṇava śrāddha, and they do it only for…

GBC: For the śrāddha of their ancestors.

Śrīla Gurudeva: They don't require any bhakti. When they mother of Nārada ṛṣi was dead and he left that dead body there. Went away.

GBC: No śrāddha ceremony.

Śrīla Gurudeva: No, nothing, nothing.

(Hindi aside)…

He is telling: (reading from original Sanskrit).

Lubdhaka means uh…?

Audience: Hunter.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Hunter. Oh, hunter.

GBC: Hunter deer.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Deers hunter.

GBC: Hunter! Oh! Mṛgayuḥ. Like this.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Mṛgayuḥ. Oh, mṛgayuḥ, nāma saṅkīrtana rūpa bhakti aṅga anuṣṭhāne. When a person is doing harināma saṅkīrtana deśe niyamāne. The niyamā for place.

GBC: Limitation of place.

GBC: Rules. Rule of…

Śrīla Gurudeva: Pavitram. Rules and regulations.

GBC: Yea, rules and regulations.

Śrīla Gurudeva: For place or time no niyamā at all. And, in harināma, ucchiṣṭā…you are eating something and you can not do saṅkīrtana. It is not forbidden there. You can do.

   khāite śuite yathā tathā nāma laya
kāla-deśa-niyama nāhi, sarva siddhi haya

["Regardless of time or place, one who chants the holy name, even while eating or sleeping, attains all perfection. CC Antya (20.18)]

GBC: What about when we are doing the yajña?

Śrīla Gurudeva: Yajña.

GBC: Yeah, when you do the yajña.

Śrīla Gurudeva: There it will be; because it is karma — like karma. So, there…

GBC: And when you are doing sevā of the mūrti sevā you can not eat.

Śrīla Gurudeva: No, here he is telling about nāma saṅkīrtana. In sevā we should…

GBC: Be (indistinct-purified)…

Śrīla Gurudeva: …all these things.

But I think any sevā, if bhāva bhakti is there, he can do anything. He is taking something, himself, and he can give to Kṛṣṇa, like Yaśodā.

Sanātana Gosvāmī came to Mathurā and saw that a widow was serving her two boys. One was Madana-Gopāla Himself and other was her son. They were playing together and so many places they were playing.

One day Sanātana Gosvāmī came and saw that they were playing …guli daṇḍa; … daṇḍa you know.

Audience: A stick and…(game).

Śrīla Gurudeva: Kṛṣṇa was defeated by that boy. At first Kṛṣṇa won and that boy was defeated. Kṛṣṇa told that, "You should sit, I will sit on your shoulders." He did so. He went some distance and when Kṛṣṇa was defeated then boy told that, "You should sit and I will sit on your shoulders." Kṛṣṇa at once fled away and He entered in temple and the boy followed with that stick. That you are not giving my…

Audience: Reward.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …reward and you are flying. I will catch hold of You, I will beat You. So, he followed up to mandir but there priest was there and he prohibited that boy, "Oh, don't come here." Then he told from there that, "I will see tomorrow."

Sanātana Gosvāmī was amazing, "How this is." Next day he came again to see them playing. He saw that the two boys were weeping and they were wanting something to take, eat, and mother was cooking khichṛī. She was washing her mouth by a stick.

GBC: And she was cooking at the same time.

Śrīla Gurudeva: And cooking and by same thing. By this here (hand gesture?) and she was cooking.

Sanātana Gosvāmī told that, "You are brāhmaṇa lady have you taken snāna?"

"No, I have not done."

"So, without taking bath and by this…your all thing are coming in this and you are doing and this will give to two boys. Oh, it should not be done."

"At first I did not do. Now I'll obey you."

Second day he again came and saw that both boys were weeping and lady has begun to take bath and after that came, washed all the pots, and she brought good clear water, pavitra water, and then began to cook kitri from spoon. And it was too late and the boys were weeping. Sanātana Gosvāmī thought that, " Svayam Brahman Kṛṣṇa, wanting to take her, ucchiṣṭā, so I have done mistake. He is weeping to take her ucchiṣṭā."

Ucchiṣṭā means…?

Audience: Remnants.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Remnants. So, she should do what she wants. Then he begged pardon and told that, "You should not take bath; you should not be pure; what you want, you should do and serve these boys."

So, in bhakti ucchiṣṭā and all these things but that person should be, that sādhaka should be, in upper level.

GBC: Where is that from, that narration about Sanātana Gosvāmī, which, is it from some scripture?

Śrīla Gurudeva: Bhakti-ratnākara. There are so many places. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also told:

khāite śuite yathā tathā nāma laya
kāla-deśa-niyama nāhi, sarva siddhi haya

["Regardless of time or place, one who chants the holy name, even while eating or sleeping, attains all perfection. CC Antya (20.18)]

If you are taking something and your Gurudeva has called you, "Oh, come at once." What will you do?

GBC: Drop everything and go.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Even I will not wash my hands. At first see that what is his orders and then I will wash hand and if something order is to carry at once in this same uh…

Audience: Condition.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …condition I will do first.

GBC: We were on a train with our Guru Mahārāja. So, we were all eating so, he said, "Give me some more of this." So, their hands, they were eating, he said, "Just give it to me. Don't worry about it." So, he said, "Just give it, don't wash your hands. Serve me now." Like that.

Śrīla Gurudeva: So, in connection of Kṛṣṇa also as Guru vaiṣṇava.

GBC: You told that your Guru Mahārāja did not take bath for so many days.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Uh.

GBC: Kṛṣṇa was accepting everything he did.

Śrīla Gurudeva: He used to tell that, "I don't want to loss my time in bathing and all these things." At least one hour it will take, this time will take. Why should I loss? For these clothes when it will be maila

Audience: Dirty.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …dirty after two, three, four days, five days. No harm.

GBC: And bathe only once in a long time.

Audience: One month. On day of pūrṇimā.

GBC: One month. Once in a month.

Śrīla Gurudeva: On pūrṇimā. He used to tell that his Prabhupāda also used to do. He used to take one ghoti of water. Ghoti?

Audience: Lota. One pot.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Ghoti you know?

GBC: Pot.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Pot. Little pot.

Audience: Lota.

Śrīla Gurudeva: And after shaving all these things he used to fall the water from here but all water…

Audience: Outside.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …outside. So, very little water used to come there. And…

GBC: Why he did that?

Śrīla Gurudeva: (with mirth) Maha-puruṣa? You can not ask from Dattātreya and all others why. They are not in this body, physical body. Always thinking and thinking. (break audio)

Śrīla Gurudeva: In any mantra ucharana

In uttering any karmī mantra, our jñāna, karma, yogi, ityādī.. The fruit will be upset; indra-śatroindra-śatro. Upset. Understanding?

GBC: Yes.

Śrīla Gurudeva: That brāhmaṇa, Ṛṣi, wanted to take revenge from Indra. So, he was doing something Tantric upacāra. Tantric upacāra you know? Tantric upacāra, so that Indra should be killed. So, he was japa-ing…

GBC: Chanting.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Not chanting.

Audience: Uttering.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …uttering in mind some mantraindra-śatro vivardhasva [from SB (6.9.11)].

hata-putras tatas tvaṣṭā
 juhāvendrāya śatrave
indra-śatro vivardhasva
 mā ciraṁ jahi vidviṣam

[After Viśvarūpa was killed, his father, Tvaṣṭā, performed ritualistic ceremonies to kill Indra. He offered oblations in the sacrificial fire, saying, "O enemy of Indra, flourish to kill your enemy without delay." SB (6.9.11)]

The śatro of Indra should come and kill him. But, by chance, it was uttered wrongly. Indra-śatru vivardhasva: he stressed on śatro. Indra will be śatro of my son. The meaning came. And at last that was done. He got a son and that was killed by Indra. That son could not kill Indra. So, in karma yajña, leaving bhakti, anything will upset; but in bhakti: klīṁ kṛṣṇāya govindo namaḥ. Nothing will be harmed. Bhāva will be there, and Kṛṣṇa will take it, but by knowing all these things I will do like this, then everything will be…

Audience: Finished.

Śrīla Gurudeva: If a man is telling kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇāve. Only he is telling Kṛṣṇa, no harm. His bhāva should be there.

GBC: Sometimes we hear a devotee, I have seen sometimes, especially in China, I sit and I listen to some devotee and they may not be chanting the mahāmantra always perfectly.

Śrīla Gurudeva: No harm. God knows. Kṛṣṇa knows everything.

GBC: You say the Chinese can't even say it.

GBC: Yeah, they have difficulty saying it.

Śrīla Gurudeva: I have seen a lady: We were trying her to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. And she was so much eager, waiting for so many years; but we tried hard but she could not utter all at a time. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare. I told that, "Everything you will have. You should do."

GBC: Was she an uneducated lady?

Śrīla Gurudeva: (indistinct)

GBC: But very eager.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Very eager. And always doing with mala; always. And such very…very with śrāddha. Serving everything.

GBC: One of our…When Guru-Mahārāja gave us the gāyatrī, first time, one of our godbrothers, very sincere devotee named Jayānanda, so, he could not get the correct pronunciation. So, he went with me and we went to Guru-Mahārāja. So, he said, "I can not get this correctly." So, Guru-Mahārāja said, "You say it, let me hear." So, he tried to say it but it was so wrong that Guru-Mahārāja started to laugh. He said, "It is hopeless." He said, "You don't worry." He said, "Kṛṣṇa will except. Kṛṣṇa is excepting your feelings. Never mind."

Śrīla Gurudeva: (joyous laughter from Śrīla Gurudeva)

GBC: But he was laughing.

Śrīla Gurudeva: When bhāvana is there then Kṛṣṇa takes everything.

GBC: In Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu one of the aṅgas is mentioned is nāma japa. So, I think the commentaries mention klīṁ kṛṣṇāya namaḥ as the mantra. So, we don't chant that mantra. We chant mahāmantra.

Śrīla Gurudeva: What Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His followers have done, we should do. What our guru has given, only his instructions, should be followed.

(Hindi aside)…

sakrda api parigitam sraddaya helaya va

(Mādhurya Kādambinī)

He was asking.

If there is no aparādha there then without śrāddha or anything Kṛṣṇa name will catch śrāddha.

brguvara nara matram tarayet krsna-nama

(Mādhurya Kādambinī)

In jñāna, or karma, by chance a man does any durācāra, any kind of durācāra, you understand durācāra?

Audience: Bad habits.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Um. Bad habits. They are called nirlajja and vaman bhogī. Vaman bhogī means…

Audience: Vānta-āśī.

GBC: Vānta-āśī. Oh.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Vānta-āśī. What?

GBC: Vomit…

Śrīla Gurudeva: …and again taking.

(reading from original Sanskrit Mādhurya Kādambinī) Kaṁsa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Rāvaṇadi… They were so much jñānī, learned persons. Rāvaṇa so much learned person and he was certainly a guru of jñānīs. He has wrote some Lanka sūtra.

GBC: Who is this?

Śrīla Gurudeva: Rāvaṇa.

GBC: Ah! Rāvaṇa.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Kaṁsa also, uh, Hiraṇyakaśipu also. He was a learned person of Vedas. They can utter and do Vedic rīti. Everything there. But they were durācārī so, in śāstra, śāstra has rebuked them. But for bhakta it has not been told. Like Ajāmila, no nindā of Ajāmila; Bilvamaṅgala and likewise.

bhaktiṁ parāṁ bhagavati pratilabhya kāmaṁ / hṛd-rogam āśv apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ He has taken a* śloka* from Śrīmad Bhāgavatam:

vikrīḍitaṁ vraja-vadhūbhir idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ
 śraddhānvito 'nuśṛṇuyād atha varṇayed yaḥ
bhaktiṁ parāṁ bhagavati pratilabhya kāmaṁ
 hṛd-rogam āśv apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ

[Anyone who faithfully hears or describes the Lord's playful affairs with the young gopīs of Vṛndāvana will attain the Lord's pure devotional service. Thus he will quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart. SB (10.33.39)]

Someone tells that we should give up our bad habits and then we should do bhakti.

GBC: After.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Uh. Afterwards. If there is a pot full of clay we should take out all these clays and wash that pot and then we should put water. That water will be qualified for drinking. If clay is fully there, not a drop of water will come in that pot. So, we should give up all these things.

Here Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura is telling that, having this body, physical body, physical mind, anyone can not be pure, quite pure. So, if we try to be pure and then after being pure we will do bhakti, it is absurd. So, in what stage you are, you should adopt bhakti and by bhakti everything will gradually go out and in the ratio bhakti comes all these goes away.

vikrīḍitaṁ vraja-vadhūbhir idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ

First we should hear bhakti in what stage we are.

hṛd-rogam āśv apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ

If we have hṛd-roga, hṛd-roga means kāma vāsanā, hankering from viṣaya to taste viṣaya. Everything is there. So, if you have, but at the same time you have taste in hearing, chanting and all these things, you should do. You should not try to concentrate your mind. You should try to be so pure. You should do bhakti and by doing bhakti you will have, create, no time for all these things. And hṛd-roga will come; hṛd-roga is bad to any other other roga.

Audience: Worst than any other disease.

Śrīla Gurudeva: This is very worst roga, kāma roga, that Bilvamaṅgala had Prahlāda Mahārāja had.

Audience: Prahlāda Mahārāja?

Śrīla Gurudeva: At first part. When he was in brāhmaṇa clothes. Nārada also has this in Gandharva Janaka birth.

So, when bhakti is done hṛd-rogam āśv apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ. When para-bhakti is done to Bhagavān, by the effect of that para-bhakti, hṛd-roga yet goes away. Slowly. So, we should not try to concentrate our mind and all these things to do, but always be engaged in* bhakti* so that a single moment will not be found to do all these things.

So, he is telling that those who, the persons, those who are some śrāddha, and by śrāddha they are hearing Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, rāsa-panchadhaya or any pastime with gopīs, they are hearing with śrāddha, those persons will have para-bhakti and by having* para-bhakti* every hṛd-roga and everything will go away. Certainly. So, do not try to leave all these bad habits at first. They should wash these, all these things, by bhakti only.

GBC: Still we see that we try to remove some bad habits. If we see in a devotee, in a disciple or something, some habits which are not good we may point it out.

Śrīla Gurudeva: But we will be have some bal bhakti and by bhakti these thoughts are coming.

What I want to say?

GBC: I'm not sure.

GBC: That it's by your devotion that you destroy their…

Śrīla Gurudeva: No.

I am thinking to destroy all these things; but why?

GBC: By bhakti's strength.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Bhakti is coming slowly and slowly they we are thinking like this. If we are not in a mood to hear, chant, and to go in the association of bhaktiman puruṣa this thought will not come. So, it is the effect of bhakti that we are thinking like so and then we are doing so, it is proper.

So, he is telling that if kāma is there, kāma means…

Audience: Lust.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Lust is there, or any asadachar is there, he is not, this fact is not that, "He should not do bhakti."

GBC: But he can not be given initiation, our spiritual master said, unless you give up illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling for six months, then you can get initiation and dīkṣā.

Śrīla Gurudeva: (unknown Hindi aside)…

We say like this, Guru says like this, but he knows that everything is there but he can not leave.

GBC: Can not give up the bad habits.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Mm-uh. By bhakti he can give up. You are married but you are doing the same thing that you are doing but you have got license only. So, he knows that he is doing everything but under his license he is doing. If that thought does not come in my heart then it is pure — anything, to marry or anything. We are not smoking, no? We are not drinking and gambling. We have no lust or anything but we have no charm in harināma chanting or hearing hari-kathā. What will be the use of all these things?

So, guru tells it as a warning but he knows that is everything is there.

GBC: Everything is there means…?

GBC: You are doing the bad things.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Bad things are there, in any form or other form, but they are. We want praise also at that time. I think that if a man takes bidi cigarette and if a man does a nindā of any vaiṣṇava, who is more culprit?

GBC: The vaiṣṇava nindā.

Śrīla Gurudeva: But we don't think it. We say, "Oh, you gamble?"

"Uh. Yes."

"Then you will not have harināma."

GBC: But are you saying that we should give harināma even if…

Śrīla Gurudeva: No, I am not saying this. You should…

GBC: Get the point.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …my heart's view. We know that something is wrong but yet we give harināma or ācārya gives harināma.

"You gamble?"

"No, um…Yes."

"You have lust?"

"Yes."

"You should not do this. You have any asadāra?"

"Yes, I have."

"You should leave all these things."

Four things, Parīkṣit Mahārāja, um, Śukadeva Gosvāmī has dyūtaḿ pānaḿ striyaḥ sūnā (Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.17.38)…

These four things. But these

are not so offensive to do nindā avāgya of vaiṣṇavas or to um…"Oh, harināma will not do all these things." These are more sinful. But yet we don't care for all these things. We, um, a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī goes on that points, outer points, but vaiṣṇava, śuddha-vaiṣṇava, uttamā-adhikārī goes on this.

If a man in habit of taking cigarette, what is harm in bhakti cult of he takes? Any harm? What harm? But he tells lie, he is doing offense of bhakti nāma aparādha and all these things, anartha is there. But anartha is not there, only he is smoking?

What is harm?

Audience: Smoking is anartha.

GBC: There are some harms.

Śrīla Gurudeva: What?

GBC: Uh…I think…

Śrīla Gurudeva: If Vaṁsīdāsa Bābājī is taking gudgudi, what harm?

Audience: He is liberated soul.

Śrīla Gurudeva: If you are taking (unknown) this period, Cāturmāsya, what harm? If I will see that, we shave on pūrṇimā, if a man comes being shaved on other days, "Oh, why you have shaved? You should not do like this." Is it harm for bhakti?Shaving or not shaving. If a man not shaves, what is harm? But yet we are following our guru paramparā. We should do what they have adopted. This is sato-vṛttiḥ only. But not so dangerous as aparādha and anartha. So, if a man is in habit but he is doing ananya bhakti:

api cet su-durācāro
bhajate mām ananya-bhāk
sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ
samyag vyavasito hi saḥ

[Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination. Bg (9.30)]

But it is not the meaning that I am going tell that, "You should take all these things and do bhakti."

Here, by this śloka, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura is telling (unknown - asamapika) kriyā; (unknown - asamapika) means um…pratilabhya kāmaṁ / hṛd-rogam āśv. He is doing* bhakti* and yet he has hṛd-roga, but hṛd-roga will go out.

GBC: So, here the point is to in any circumstance, at every case, everyone should do bhakti no matter what their condition is.

Śrīla Gurudeva: We should try to do bhakti constantly; not thinking that we should leave all these things, always leaving, leaving, leaving more. It will come more. And if we will stress on doing bhakti then we have/get no time for doing all these things. That is the…his point.

(Hindi aside)…

GBC: We are almost finished.

Śrīla Gurudeva: This adhaya is finished. If any good point I will think and tell you. He is telling that if a very durācāra vyakti is there and he has accepted bhakti then bhakti will come in that person and take this person in superlative degree and all are bound to obey him, respect him.

In Hindi: Bhakti is such a thing that even if in a extremly bad place, if done, it lifts that person up to such a high condition that such a person can stand face to face with the Lord…

The prostitute lady went to Haridāsa Ṭhākur and Haridāsa Ṭhākur, by chanting, he gave that lady Kṛṣṇa bhakti, pure Kṛṣṇa bhakti, and she became mahānti. So much great lady that all mahānts, mahānts means…

Audience: Great vaiṣṇavas.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …great vaiṣṇavas used to go and

Audience: …take her darśana.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …darśana and to salute and to do praṇāma and everything. Bhakti is so much powerful that anyone, if he enters in his heart, he becomes pure and he is very srestha in this world.

GBC: Very…?

Audience: Great person.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Uttamā bhakta and devatā, Brahmā, Śańkara, all respect.

Vas today's…

Now it will be easier.

GBC: More quickly.

Audience: Second chapter one day, third chapter one day.

GBC: No, I doubt it.

GBC: The students are slow.

Śrīla Gurudeva: No, I am slow. My English knowing is giving disturbance.

GBC: No…

Śrīla Gurudeva: Otherwise everything…

GBC: Not to us. Not to our ears.

Śrīla Gurudeva: It takes time.

GBC: Quite sweet.

Śrīla Gurudeva: I am not satisfied but you are satisfied. Hindi and Bengali I will be satisfied…

I have seen that translation but so wrong.

Audience: English or the…

Audience: English. Idea is different. Just opposite.

GBC: Which one?

Audience: In that Jaiva-Dharma. Just opposite.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Question is different, answer is different.

GBC: What's that your manuscript?

GBC: I don't know. I don't have any manuscript.

Śrīla Gurudeva: I will show you.

Then you will come tomorrow? At seven.

GBC: Today you have a program.

Śrīla Gurudeva: What?

GBC: I think you are going out today. You mentioned that you are going somewhere.

(break audio)

GBC: We are most poor. They are rich.

Śrīla Gurudeva: You will go to, certainly, when ISKCON person will call you and you will go to so many rich person, but we are not rich. And began to weep bitterly. I told her that I have got (indistinct) today very (indistinct).

GBC: Did that person come to see you who was on the roadside. In the bus when we were going (indistinct) on person who was there.

GBC: Sādhu Mahārāja.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Uh? Sādhu Mahārāja?

GBC: The one who taṭastha śakti book.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Oh, yes, yes.

GBC: He came and saw you in Rūpa-Sanātana?

Śrīla Gurudeva: We went day before yesterday but at that time I was ready to come here. So, only one minute or two minutes. He did praṇāma to me. No…

GBC: Nothing special.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Nothing special. And I was…there were so many persons there questioning, I was answering. He sat down for two or three minutes. He did not go to ISKCON?

GBC: No.

Śrīla Gurudeva: He has taken sannyāsa by Śrīdhar Mahārāja?

GBC: No. He took sannyāsa from a disciple from one of the devotees…a disciple of our guru Mahārāja who had joined Śrīdhar Mahārāja gave him sannyāsa on behalf of Śrīdhar Mahārāja.

Śrīla Gurudeva: But I told him, "Your fact may be true that jīva has not come from Goloka but the persons and the ideas of Svāmīji was not like this." He has told as a general but putting of (his presentation) is not so. I told him.

Audience: (indistinct)

Śrīla Gurudeva: I told that I have given a lecture there and somehow I have clearly that both the ideas of our guru paramparā and Svāmīji are one, not opposite. They have told something he is silent in some cases and he has told that: jīvera 'svarūpa' haya — kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa.' So, I think that these are not controversy.

GBC: You have reconciled.

Śrīla Gurudeva: I told that you should have reconciled, it was very good. He could not answer.

GBC: You said all these things two days ago.

Śrīla Gurudeva: In a moment I told. I was ready to come. By standing…

Audience: (indistinct)

(break audio)

(kīrtana in background)

Śrīla Gurudeva: Everything?

GBC: Everything. Every word we want.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Niṣṭha means buddhi pūrvikā. By wisdom we…there is some…

Come here to sit…

GBC: No, this is…

Śrīla Gurudeva: Buddhi pūrvikā: when we decide this thing is good, but no taste. We have heard it anywhere that to do Kṛṣṇa bhakti is good thing. But I have no taste. So, deciding by mental…

Audience: Intelligence.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …intelligence we decide that we should bhakti; but when we go to do bhakti there is alasa, alasa meaning…

Audience: Laziness.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …laziness, sometimes sleeping, sometimes we don't care, but know that this is good. So, when we do it by deciding by mental thing, then it is niṣṭha and we do it regularly; but when, if we do not do, there will be something lacking and there will be taste. No alasa, no sleeping, no wastage of time. Then it will be ruci.

Similarly there are some differences between ruci and āsakti. Ruci in sādhana and āsakti may be on sādhyāḥ, Kṛṣṇa. Something remembering the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa rūpa, guṇa, līlā. So, there are some differences.

GBC: One has the taste in ruci and one is fully absorbed, his consciousness is fully absorbed in āsakti.

Śrīla Gurudeva: In bhāva avastha we can absorb. Not in āsakti (unknown). We'll gradually go up. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura is this mad Madhurya Kadambini has given…

(Hindi aside)…

When we go anywhere all are

GBC: Hankering.

Śrīla Gurudeva: …anxious to go.

GBC: In Śrī Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu it describes how sādhana of bhakti is kleśaghnī and śubhadā. So, those two qualities only seem to completely manifest themselves at niṣṭha for the sādhaka.

Śrīla Gurudeva: Here sādhana bhakti meaning sādhana of uttamā bhakti. But when we do sādhana it is not complete, completely done. So, it is sādhana, by external…māna, buddhi, ahaṅkāra, cit, all.

(END AUDIO)